User blog:Sunshineandravioli/Stuff Sunshine Likes, Late Review Special



Greetings again, denizens of the wiki! As I’m sure you’ve begun to figure out by now, Fridays are usually when I post my weekly “Stuff Sunshine Likes” review. Unfortunately, I’ve had a few other commitments/distractions this week, so my planned review – one of the cult TV show Community – is yet to be finished and has been postponed to next week, for which I apologize. Thankfully, I have a bit of a backup… I’m sure by now you all know Mrdaimion, with whom I often engage in analytical conversation and/or intellectual debate. Well, two weeks ago, after the release of my first review, we engaged in one of these lengthy discussions; going in-depth on such topics as GLaDOS’ character in the original Portal, the accessibility of puzzle games such as the Portal and Professor Layton series, the over-sexualization of women in games like Batman: Arkham City, what makes a compelling character and/or a successful villain, when small and large casts are and are not effective in video games, voice actors, and using time restraints to enhance or detract from the quality and challenge of a game. The conversation went on so long and so in-depth that Mrdaimion and I half-jokingly agreed that the lengthy conversation would make a good substitute review in the event I was unable to complete one in time.

Well, I was unable to complete one in time. XD And because of this, I now present to you Sunshine and Mrdaimion’s Analytical Happy Hour: An In-Depth Discussion and Analysis of Character, Story, Voice Acting and Mechanics in Modern Video Games, and What They Mean. Special thanks to Mrdaimion for granting permission for this conversation to be used, and for all his input (and to Sprinklemist, who also contributed to our discussion at one point). Oh yeah, and be warned that this discussion may contain SPOILERS for various games, including Portal, Portal 2, Professor Layton and the Curious Village, Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney, Jak 3, The Legend of Zelda: Majora’s Mask, et cetera. (The conversation went in a lot of directions… XD) Do enjoy!

Mrdaimion:

... wow, this review is about as long as the standard fanfic chapter on here. xD

More to the point, however, wonderful review Sunshine- although I still can't play it (my PC can't run it, and even if it could I'd be too pissed at how hard the puzzles were to continue), this sure as Hell makes me want to (although I still say Jim Cummings is a better voice actor then Ellen McLain- he manages to voice act the second half of Be Prepared with an entirely different person singing the first half, and you can barely tell the difference). This doesn't really seem like my kind of game, though, even though this makes me want to play it- I don't like puzzle games too much (which reminds me, I have to play Layton [Note: Professor Layton and the Curious Village] some more soon xD). =P

And gawsh, you and Owe making reviews makes me want to review something too- I'd probably suck at it though. xP If I did review something, though, it would either be Nightmare Before Christmas, Minecraft, or The Room (if you dunno what The Room is, check out this scene from it). xD

Sunshine:

I'll admit, puzzle games aren't for everyone, though games like Layton and Portal have redefined the genre a little by proving you can have engaging storylines and characters along with mental challenges. Speaking of which, how far are you now? (Have you reached my previously mentioned Dreaded Character of Doom that makes Luke look perfectly un-annoying yet? XD) I'm generally a pretty casual gamer, so I'm usually not one to talk to about game recommendations if you don't like a very specific style of games, though I like to think I have fairly good (if offbeat) taste in games. X3

Be Prepared as in Be Prepared from the Lion King? O_O 'Cause if it is, holy ravioli I never knew it was two different people doing it. Ellen McLain's still probably one of the best of this generation, though (then again, we've reached kind of a golden age of voice acting - I've seen some fantastic work in TV and video games, and I really have immense respect for voice actors, as it's a lot harder to do well than most people would think). ''[Note: I have not yet seen Total Drama: Return to the Island. XD]''

I have no idea what The Room is. Is it a horror thing? Horror things scare the bajeebus out of me, even pretty tame ones... XP

Mrdaimion:

Eh, I tried Portal 2 before- it was fun enough, but I can't really judge it that much cause it was in the introductory stages. xD And... I'm in the middle of finding the cat, cause I forgot about the game. xD [Note: There is a point in the game where you are required to find a character’s beloved cat, who runs off into the village.] I'm starting to play it again now. xP And yeah, Jim Cummings starts at "You won't get a sniff without me!" - I didn't realize that it was two different peeps either until Nostalgia Critic pointed it out. xD

And the Room's the scariest movie ever if you have a phobia of bad movies- the maker of it says it's a black comedy, but people believe it's a poorly-done drama. If you wanna know how awful it is, check out the scene. xD

Sunshine:

I'm really afraid to look at it now... XDD

Oh sweet ravioli, I remember finding that cat XD So cute and fluffy, and yet so evil... X3

Mrdaimion:

See the scene, it's hilarious, not even joking. xD

Oh yeah, and on a side note, at first I disagreed with you about what you said about GLaDOS supposed to not make you feel like the good guy- I mean, GLaDOS is the one who kidnapped you and tried to kill you (before you tried to kill her), right?

... But, then I re-listened to Want You Gone (better then Still Alive by the way, imo) and realized that I kinda had to agree with you once I heard this part of it, when I actually started feeling bad for GLaDOS... When I get a better graphics card, I need to try out Portal. xP

Sunshine:

See, that's the thing about GLaDOS - once you get past the imprisonment and the passive-aggressiveness and the murder attempts and the remarks about your weight, GLaDOS' is just this sad, broken little thing who acts infallible and authorative to hide just how sad and lonely she is. She's a computer, so she has to be perfect, and yet she's not, so you have to figure that kind of messes with her a little. So she acts like she is perfect. "The bigger they act, the more they're trying to cover up" (or something like that. That's probably not a real quote. XD)

Mrdaimion:

Yeah, GLaDOS actually sounds like the kind of villain that I love in video games- honestly, for the most part, I hate the villains that are all "blargh ha ha I'm evil you can't stop me >:)" with no development (the exception being pretty much every Final Fantasy villain- not sure why, but even when they do act like that [ie Kefka], you can't help but love them/feel sorry for them/have them evict some kind of emotion). xP Although she probably wouldn't end up as my favorite villain if I ever played Portal- that title would have to go to Dr. Nefarious cause I'm a Ratchet and Clank fanboy (even though I've only ever played Up Your Arsenal and one other whose name I can't recall). xP

And also- speaking of GLaDOS- I have to point out that I disagree with your apparent dislike of Catwoman in Arkham Asylum because she's "too female stereotyped". [Note: The incredibly sexualized Catwoman of the Arkham games can be seen here.] I mean, she does act like someone only there for the sole purpose of love interests and being rescued (although she was only rescued once, at the beginning, and Catwoman actually ended up saving Batman there as well), that's mainly because she pretty much acted that way in the comics as well. Plus, it's not like she's worthless- she's incredibly fun to play as, can easily wipe out a room of foes, and I'm pretty sure that about four tenths of Arkham Asylum's players would agree that she's actually a lot more fun to play as/better at fighting then Batman is. (Sorry, just felt like I had to point this out. xP)

Sunshine:

Villains like that can be fun to a point, but when you get an antagonist like GLaDOS, who has such a realness and tragic quality to her, it makes you really remember her. Even after you've won the game and defeated her, she resonates with you.

Don't get me wrong, Arkham City's a great game, and Catwoman is definitely fun to play as (I love watching her pouncing from vantage points and onto enemies), and you're right, she's most definitely not worthless. It's just the character designs in the game for not just Catwoman, but really all the female characters in the game... AAARRRG THEY'RE ALL JUST BOOBS BOOBS BOOBS BOOBS BOOBS MORE FREAKIN' BOOBS. SERIOUSLY, BOOBS EVERYWHERE. AND THEN THE POUTY SEXY LITTLE VOICES TO BOOT. I love that they're awesome butt-kicking ladies and all, I just wish they didn't have to basically wear lingerie to do it. ><" (I mean, seriously, when I saw Harley Quinn's design for the game I practically cried. I was just like "WHAT DID THEY DO TO YOU HARLEEEYYY D:") [Note: The offending Harley design can be found here.]

Mrdaimion:

Yeah, I agree with you- I think I like the Final Fantasy villains cause the characters do have a fair share of development and a lot of sad moments for some, and despite a lot of their similarities still manage to be relatively different every time. They have the best kind of villains usually: Villains who actually manage to have enough depth to them so that, no matter what they do, when it's the final showdown and you manage to beat them, you can't help but feel at least a twinge of guilt over it- that's one reason why I don't like most of the Mario series (except for SM64, that was amazing), Bowser's a boring, plain villain (along with Peach being a boring damsel in distress and Mario being a boring plumber who can shoot fireballs).

And again, that's kinda not the game's fault- a lot of the outfits (especially Catwoman's) were like that in the original comics, they just made the outfits a bit more realistic (albeit more revealing). I do have to agree with you about Harley Quinn, though- although I'm not complaining about the outfit (I'm a teen boy, sue me), it's so unnecessary and looks nothing like her original outfit from Batman: The Animated Series. I probably woulda been more upset about it, but eh, I never watched B:TAS (except for Almost Got 'Im). xP But, the point is, Arkham City is still a great game (even if I only played it while visiting my friend), even if it's obviously trying to appeal more to the male fanbase of the series (which is understandable, since the male fanbase is about 90% of the fan-base). =P

Sunshine:

That's part of what elevates a game from simply fun to something truly great - you actually have to care about the characters, see them act believably human, connect with them - if you don't care about the hero, you won't have any reason to want to aid them on their quest; if you don't care about whoever's aiding or directing you, you won't want to listen to them; and if you don't care about your antagonist, you won't be driven to defeat them. When you start caring about the characters and the things they stand for, it draws you into the game and makes it even greater. That's part of Portal's genius, in making it a first-person game - because the main character is you, of course you care about the main character, and then the writing and acting for GLaDOS - both the character who leads you forward and the character who acts as your antagonist - is so well-done that you care about her as well, and Portal has so few characters that just by doing that, suddenly you have a true drive to keep going with the game.

On that note, that's probably why I'm iffy about Arkham City - the gameplay and graphics and story are all excellent, but the characters are often depicted as being so darn perfect that it's hard to connect with them, especially with Batman himself, which is probably why when people talk about the series you often hear them being more impressed or connected to the villains rather than Batman, as they have a bit more flaws and more realism to them.

Mrdaimion:

I agree with you whole-heartedly- that's the main reason the Zelda series ever got so popular in the first place, for example. In every game since the series became 3D the characters have always had a ton of depth to them- the best example of this is probably Majora's Mask. There was not only a three day time limit to complete the game (which, although a lot of fans disliked [understandably], I actually thought was brilliant since it helped to make you feel that you were actually in a rush to save the world), and there were a ton of characters in it, all with a bunch of quests and depth to them. The fact that they all were unbelievably well-detailed was one of the things in Majora's Mask that gave the player even more motivation then previously that they had to save the world so all of the wonderful characters they met along the way wouldn't die. Although normally I dislike games with few characters- a lot of the time a lack of characters is mostly due to laziness to come up with different personalities so they just put a few in and try (but fail to) make them well-developed to make up for it- Portal not only has an excuse for it (you're in an abandoned science facility, how many characters could they possibly have?) and executes it well, but it actually works better with only a handful of characters.

And... Yeah, I agree with you there, I have to admit. xD But you have to give it to the Batman series, none-the less: They have some pretty kick-ass villains, my favorite of which being The Riddler (although I can understand people disliking him- seriously, when you think about it, he's an awful villain [he purposefully leaves clues behind as to where he is xD]). Speaking of Batman villains, I can't wait to see what The Dark Knight Rises manages to do with Bane- I mean, they managed to transform a character I usually hate (The Joker) into one of my favorite movie villains ever with the last film (seriously, how are you supposed to hate him after this?), I can't wait to see what they do with a villain I already like (Bane). xP

Sunshine:

Portal does the same thing with the time limit, albeit only in the final battle - by putting a limit on how long you have to complete a goal, it 1) makes it seem more complicated than it actually is, even if your goal is something very simple, and 2) gives you more drive to do it, as the threat of something bad happening at the end of that time limit makes you more determined to do what it takes to avert it. And I suppose the character amount kind of depends on what you do with the characters - if you have a game like Portal, where there's a reason for the lack of character and the ones that do exist are developed to the point these characters are, then it works beautifully. If you have a game where either there's not a reason for there to be only a few characters, the few characters have very little development, or worst of all, both, then of course it doesn't work. And it works the opposite way as well - if you've got a bunch of characters and none of them are well-developed, then it's terrible, but if all of them reach something close to this level of development, then it's freakin' incredible. As mentioned before, you just need to have characters you actually care about, otherwise nothing works.

Batman villains are pretty epic, yes, and that's why the series works even though, honestly, Batman himself is kind of a weak character: the villains are engaging enough that you at least care about them, so you're willing to overlook the weaknesses in the good guys because these villains are just so darnz awesome. On a related note, I thought the Riddler was wicked epic in Arkham City. He's less leaving clues to his whereabouts there, and more using the clues he leaves as a way to mess with people's minds - in fact, that's his character as a whole; he doesn't care about winning or losing, he just wants the superiority of being able to mess around with people.

Mrdaimion:

Well, in my opinion, although the whole time limit on the final boss battle in Portal is a nice touch, it doesn't work as well as it did in Majora's Mask- the time limit hardly actually affects the battle, it's so simple and easy that you probably barely notice the time limit in the first place. I do like how it makes you feel slightly rushed, but Zelda executed that idea much better, if you ask me. But yeah, characters really do make or break a game- I mean, look at Final Fantasy (again), the gameplay is pretty much the exact same thing every game, yet the story and characters are so good every time that people keep on buying their games anyway. And an example of a video game with little characters that are all awful is... well, I can't think of any at the moment, but I'm sure that you've played at least one of those games before. And yeah, having a lot of characters isn't always a good thing- take Layton, for example. While a lot of its characters are amazing, it also has a fair share of ungodly annoying ones thrown into the mix as well- it probably would have been better with a smaller cast.

... Yeah, I have to agree with you about Batman only working because it has awesome villains- but it's still the best DC comic by far (not that it has much competition, the only other comic from DC I like is Watchmen- I like Marvel much more). None of the heroes are ever really that interesting in Batman, the comics tend to focus a lot more on the villains- nothing wrong with that, but it would be nice to see a comic giving more depth to the heroes once in a while. And yeah, Riddler was executed even better in the video games then he was in the comics- one of the reasons I like him a lot (in the comics I think he sorta wanted to get caught, but in the games it shows that, as you said, he just wants to enjoy the pleasure of messing around with everyone's heads).

Sunshine:

Well, that really depends on your level of skill - I had a lot of difficulty with the final battle the first time around due to my lack of experience and slow computer framerate (especially with the final core, which requires an unholy extra-complex maneuver where you have to execute a double fling and grab the core in midair, something that took me over two minutes on its own), so once or twice I did end up running out of time. With the Layton series, the main characters and even some of the secondary characters have a lot of depth to them and are really compelling, but the minor, townsfolk-y characters are generally pretty one-note, mostly because they usually only appear in one part of one game and you don't get enough time or interaction with them to learn more than a couple of things about them. Even then, though, some of the minor characters have enough revealed about them that they become more fleshed out, especially when you gain enough picarats to unlock the character bios that reveal a little bit more background on them, and some of them even in the few times you speak to them reveal enough to become a pretty compelling character (this isn't really true in Curious Village, as back then they were really working more to set up the foundation of the then-unique gameplay and introduce you to the basics of the central characters and whatnot, but in the sequels there's some minor characters that actually make you want to learn more about them, with one in particular in the third game that was just such a hilarious basis for a character that the fandom just ate it up and started developing her further in fanfictions and such like there was no tomorrow XD) [Note: This character is Rosetta, who appeared in Professor Layton and the Unwound Future and became wildly popular in the fandom.]

Mrdaimion:

Sure, low-frame rate is why it took you three tries. I believe you. xD Joking, yeah, with a computer like that it's kinda expected to have a lot of difficulty with the boss battle- if you played it on a console, like the PS3 (speaking of which, I have to say I don't understand why everyone hates most Sony games so much- sure, they have some bad games, but they also have some really, really good ones) for example, it's a lot easier so the time limit barely comes into play. And... Eh, I both love/hate some of the one-time characters you meet in Layton, because I tend to be pretty quick in judging them. xD None of them are nearly as annoying as Erol from Jak and Daxter 3 though- although I barely played the game, and most of what I know about him are from Let's Plays, he was so annoying- especially when he (SPOILER) killed Damas, that was such a jack-ass move. xP But anyhow, back on topic, yeah, Layton does do a pretty good job of juggling it's multiple characters, even if some of them are annoying.

Sprinklemist (suddenly appearing to contribute/remind us we were talking about Portal initially):

I played and beat the entire game in one day. I was with my cousins, so they helped at certain points, but I did figure out most of it myself through trial and error. I did die on the boss a few times, I think. Crazy stuff kept happening, though, like, I would place a portal and land in weird spots. I was also encouraged to hear the dialogue at that point.

One funny thing that happened *spoilers* was when you're going to be incinerated. I just thought, okay. That's the end of the game. And I graciously accepted my death. XD

Mrdaimion:

... wow, someone else was reading our talk? I figured that by this point we were pretty much just rambling on to each other. xD

And eh, to be fair, I've never played Portal (although I played a little of Portal 2), so I can't really say how hard the boss is- I'm only assuming that it's pretty easy from what I've seen of it. xD I would say that it has to be pretty easy for you to beat the game in a day, but... Eh, you can beat most games in a day now if you're dedicated enough. xP

Sprinklemist:

I was on vacation, so I had no obligations that day. XD

As for what Sunshine said about boobs, well... You're playing the Ace Attorney series and talking about that? XD ''[Note: Ace Attorney is nearly as bad as Arkham City in this regard. XD]''

Sunshine:

*SPOILERS IN RESPONSE TO SPOILERS XD* Actually, if I'm remembering correctly, Errol himself wasn't responsible for Damas' death; he and Jak were driving through Metal Head territory and an explosion flipped the car, crushing Damas beneath it. If anything the party most directly responsible for Damas' death would be either the Metal Heads (as they were in Metal Head territory) or Count Veger, who was also present and hung back watching Damas die, only coming forward to mock Jak afterwards. Nevertheless though, it was indeed quite a jack-ass move. I seriously cried a little at that scene. XP And in response to your Layton comment, it's tough to really come up with judgment on the characters based on your current place in the series (midway through the first game), as really the biggest amount of character development and backstory comes in the third game (though you can see them experimenting with deeper character work in the second game as well, though more with a few characters that appear only in that game rather than Layton and co., who receive more development in games 3 + 4 - in particular Layton gets a lot of development in game 3, and a lot of Luke's backstory comes to light in number 4). As I mentioned before, the developers really were focusing more on seeing if the puzzle/adventure gameplay concept would work while they were creating Curious Village, rather than focusing on the characters. Once they knew the concept worked well and started creating more games, they had more freedom to focus on the story and characters, as the success of the first game served as proof that the base gameplay worked as is.

Sprinky... LOL at your serenity in the face of certain doom. I wasn't nearly as noble. The first time I got sent into that pit, I flipped out, turned around, took a flying leap off the moving platform and died drowning in the goo back in the hallway. XDD And I agree with you on the topic of the dialogue; some of the stuff they wrote for that final battle just makes you want to stop and listen to it for a while, especially from the cores (when I got my hands on the third core, which reiterates a "cake recipe" for you, I couldn't make out a lot of the lines, so I looked them up online. They are quite hilarious. XD)

As for Ace Attorney... I never said that didn't bother me, Sprink. XD (SERIOUSLY, EVERY TIME MAYA TRANSFORMED I WAS LIKE, "DOES NO ONE NOTICE THIS GIRL SUDDENLY CAN'T GET HER SHIRT CLOSED?? NO ONE? NO ONE'S BOTHERED BY THIS AT ALL??!" XP)

…and at this point the conversation died off. :P Hope you enjoyed the discussion! Mrdaimion and I certainly did. XD

(PS. A side note, from now on new issues of “Stuff Sunshine Likes” will be posted on Saturdays rather than Fridays. This is to give me more time to work on both the reviews and my weekly blog post writings, as right now I focus on the new story chapter up to its release on Wednesday, which leaves me only two days to write my noticeably lengthy reviews. I hope you’ll all still continue to tune in! :D)